From: Brian Holtz [brian@holtz.org] Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 6:54 AM To: Skeptic11@aol.com Subject: RE: A question re: Turkel response To regulate the tempo of our increasingly pointless discussion, I'm going to withhold the cleartext version of my obfuscated response (below) until sometime next week. BH:: yxx xxn'x knxw vxry mxch, xr [..] yxx cxnnxx xx "yxxr xwn rxxxxrch" xx rx-vxrxfy xxx xhx xhxngx yxx xhxnk yxx knxw. x: Bxx x hxvxn'x cxxxmxx xhxx xhxngx wrxxxxn xn xhx xB xrx xhxngx x knxw. BH: xhxx wxxxx fxxx xnxxr xhx fxrxx xf xhx xwx xxxxrnxxxvxx x xxxnxxfxxx. xnxy xf yxx xxfxnx "knxwxng vxry mxch" xx "xhx xbxxxxy xx xxfxnx/rx-vxrxfy cxxxmx mxxx by xhx xB". Nx, xhxrx xrx xbvxxxxxy xxhxr pxxxxbxx xxfxnxxxxnx xf "knxwxng mxch" xn whxch xxxx knxwxxxgx cxrrxxxxxx hxghxy whxx xx xn xncycxxpxxxxx. x xm cxnfxxxnx xn my xbxxxxy xx xxfxnx xhx cxncxxxxxnx x xccxpx xx xrxx. Nxx xhx xxxxx. Rxrxxx my cxxxm xbxvx xf yxx'vx fxrgxxxxn whxx wx'rx xxxkxng xbxxx. x cxn xxfxnx whxx [xB] xxxxxx xn xhxx xxbjxcx. x xhxnk xhxx cxnxxxxxxxx x pxxxxng grxxx fxr yxxr xxx xxxx xxxk xp xhx wxrx "xxx". BH: xhxx'x whxx xhxy xxy, xx yxx xvxn qxxxxx mx xxxxxng yxx... x: x qxxxxx yxxr xxcxnx xxxxmpx xx pxrxphrxxx xhx cxncxxxxxnx xf xhx xB. Bxxh wxrx xxrxcx qxxxxx xf xhx rxxxvxnx mxxxrxxx. x hxvx nx xxxx whxx xhx xB xcxxxxxy cxncxxxxx Nxnx? xvxn xhxxgh x qxxxxx xhx xrxxcxx'x xxxcxxxxxn xhxx "Nxzxrxxh [..] wxx xhx hxmxxxwn, xnx xhxn cxrxxxnxy xxxx xhx bxrxhpxxcx"? yxx hxvx cxxxmxx xhxx xhxy xxxnxxfy bxxh Jxxxx xnx x vxxxxgx xn Gxxxxxx xx xhx bxrxhpxxcx xf Jxxxx. x xxx xm pxzzxxx by xhxxr xnxrxxxcxxry xnx-xxnxxncx xxxcrxpxxxn xf "Jxxxx xf Nxzxrxxh" xx bxxng bxrn xn Jxxxxx. Bxx xx x xxxx, xhx xxrm 'Jxxxxx' mxy nxx bx cxmpxxxxxy prxcxxx: "xx wxx xxxx xxmxxxmxx xxxx fxr Pxxxxxxnx gxnxrxxxy" [hxxp://chrxxxxxnxnxwxrx.nxx/xxcxxxnxry/jxxxx.hxmx] "xhx xxmxxx xf xhxx xxxxrxcx vxrxxx grxxxxy, xxxxnxxng xx xhx Jxwxxh pxpxxxxxxn xncrxxxxx, bxx xn mxny pxrxxxx wxxh vxry xnxxfxnxxx bxxnxxrxxx." [hxxp://www.xxxxyxxghx.xrg/xnc/xxb/vxxw.cgx?nxmbxr=x5185] "xn x wxxx xnx mxrx xmprxpxr xxnxx, xhx xxrm Jxxxx wxx xxmxxxmxx xxxxnxxx xx xhx whxxx cxxnxry xf xhx Cxnxxnxxxx" [hxxp://www.xxxrchgxxxwxrx.xrg/xxc/xbx/vxxw.cgx?nxmbxr=x2510] xn xxhxr wxrxx, xx xx x xxx xxkx xxyxng Rxnxxx Rxxgxn wxx bxrn xn xxwx xnx xxmpxcx, xxxxnxxx. xnxy xf yxx cxn fxnx qxxxxx xxyxng 'xxwx' xxmxxxmxx mxxnx xxx xf xhx mxxwxxx. x: [..] x xxn'x xhxnk yxx hxvx xx bx x prxfxxxxxnxx xchxxxr xx rxcxgnxzx xhx nxmxrxxx fxxwx xn xxch cxnvxxxxxx rxxxxnxng. BH: Fxxx frxx xx xmxgxnx xhxx yxx'vx xxxnxxfxxx xny xxch fxxwx, xr xhxx xhx xchxxxrxy cxnxxnxxx fxr Jxxxx' bxrxh yxxr xx vxry fxr frxm 6 BC. x: x xxn'x hxvx xx xmxgxnx xhx fxxwx xxxxx, xhxy xrx xpxnxy xxxcxxxxx by xchxxxrx whxn xhxy xcknxwxxxgx xhxx xxxx xx bx xpxcxxxxxvx xn nxxxrx. Yxx'rx xqxxvxcxxxng bxxwxxn "fxxwx" yxx xxxxgxx xn xhx xpxcxfxc xB mxxxrxxx x qxxxxx, xnx fxxwx xn xhx xvxxxncx fxr xhx xxxx xf xhx nxxxvxxy. xrxnxcxxxy, xhx xB xrxxcxx xxxxxf xx xn xxxmpxx xf xchxxxrx "xpxnxy xxxcxxx[xng]" x.g. xhxx xhx nxxxvxxy xxxrcxx xrx "wxxxxy xxvxrgxnx", xnx xhxx xhx xxxx xx "xpxcxxxxxvx" (vxz., xx xnxy xn "xxxxmxxx"). xx xxn'x my xmxgxnxxxxn xhxx xhxx cxncxxxxxn rxqxxrxx xnx xx pxck xnx chxxxx frxm cxnfxxcxxng xxxxx xhxx xvxn Cxxhxxxc xchxxxr, Jxhn Mxxxr, xxxxxx "xhxxxx nxx bx xxkxn xx hxxxxrxcxx". xx xhxx qxxxx xxppxxxx xx cxnxxxxxxx xn xrgxmxnx xhxx "7-6 BC" xx xn xnxxnxbxx "xxxxmxxx" xf Jxxxx' nxxxvxxy, xr xhxx xhx xchxxxrxy cxnxxnxxx xx vxry fxr frxm xhxx xxxxmxxx? "xx xx xnfxrxxnxxx xhxx xhx wxrk xf xhx xhxrx gxxnx hxx nxx bxxn xrxnxxxxxx xnxx xngxxxh, xxncx mxrx xhxn xnyxnx xxxx hx xxxxbxxxhxx xhxx xhx nxrrxxxvx frxmxwxrk xf Mxrk (xnx, x fxrxxxrx, xhx xxhxr xvxngxxxxxx) xhxxxx nxx bx xxkxn xx hxxxxrxcxx: Kxrx xxxwxg xchmxxx, 'xxr Rxhmxn xxr Gxxchxchxx Jxxx' (xxrmxxxxx: Wxxxxnxchxfxxxchx xchgxxxxxxchxfx, 1969; 1xx xx, 1919)." ('x Mxrgxnxx Jxw', vxx2, pg.49) xx xhxx qxxxx xxppxxxx xx cxnxxxxxxx xn xrgxmxnx xhxx "7-6 BC" xx xn xnxxnxbxx "xxxxmxxx" xf Jxxxx' nxxxvxxy, xr xhxx xhx xchxxxrxy cxnxxnxxx xx vxry fxr frxm xhxx xxxxmxxx? xx xxffxcxxx xx xxx why chxxxxng xpxcxfxc pxrxxxnx xf xnrxxxxbxx xxxrxxx mxkxx x cxncxxxxxn rxxxxbxx. xxrxwmxn. Whx xx cxxxxng xhx nxxxvxxy xxxxng "rxxxxbxx"? x qxxxx xx bxxng cxxxxx xn "xxxxmxxx". Yxx cxxxrxy hxvx xxffxcxxnx xnxxxxxgxncx xx rxcxgnxzx xhx xrxxh xf my xbxxrvxxxxnx Yxx xnxxxx hxvx x hxbxx xf mxkxng mxny xrxx xbxxrvxxxxnx, xnx xhxn fxxxxxy cxncxxxxng xhxx yxx'vx cxnvxncxngxy cxnxrxxxcxxx xnyxhxng x'vx xxxx. xn gxnxrxx, xnxxxx whxx yxx xxxxrx xx mx cxxxrxy cxnxrxxxcxx x xxrxcx qxxxx xf xxmxxhxng x'vx wrxxxxn, yxx'rx prxbxbxy prxxchxng xx xhx chxxr. xx x xxxpxcx yxxr rxxxcxxncx xx xcknxwxxxgx xhxm hxx xnxxhxr bxxxx xnxxrxxy. x'm nxx xn xhx hxbxx xf xcknxwxxxgxng xxngxnxxxx xbxxrvxxxxnx x xgrxx wxxh. xnx x'm xnxxxx rxxxcxxnx xx xgrxx xhxx xxch xbxxrvxxxxnx cxnxrxxxcx xnyxhxng x'vx wrxxxxn whxn x cxn xnxxxxx xxmxnxxrxxx xhxx xhxy xxn'x. x xxxm xx hxvx mxxx yxx xxfxnxxvx x xnjxy xxccxxxfxxxy xxfxnxxng my xxxxrxxxnx. xf yxx wxnx xx xmxgxnx yxx'vx "mxxx mx xxfxnxxvx", fxxx frxx. xnx x xpxxxgxzx xxncx xhxx xppxxrx xx hxvx cxxxxx yxx xx fxxx xbxxgxxxx xx xxfxnx xn xnrxxxxbxx cxxxm. x xxn'x xxxxrx Jxxxx wxx "bxrn xn Jxxxxx". x mxrxxy pxxnx xxx xhxx yxx hxvxn'x xxxxbxxxhxx xhxx xx'x cxxxrxy mxxxxkxn fxr x xchxxxrxy rxfxrxncx wxrk'x xxmmxry xxnxxncx xbxxx "Jxxxx xf Nxzxrxxh" xx xxy hx wxx "bxrn xn Jxxxxx". Bxx xxncx yxx'vx xxrxxxy xxmxxxxx xhxx mxxnxxrxxm xchxxxrxhxp xccxpxx xhx hxxxxrxcxxy xf Jxxxx, x'xx prxbxbxy hxvx xncrxxxxngxy xxxx xx xxy xn rxxpxnxx xx yxxr crxxxxx xx cxnvxcx xB xn xhxx pxxxxbxx mxxxxkx. BH: xhxx Jxxxx wxx bxrn xx hxrxxy x mxrx "xxxxmpxxxn". x: xn xhx cxnxrxry, xx xx xxmxxhxng xxkxn fxr grxnxxx by xhx vxxx mxjxrxxy xf xchxxxrx. xxyxng x cxxxm "xx xxkxn fxr grxnxxx" xmpxxxx xhxx xhxrx hxx bxxn xxxxnxxxxxy nx xffxrx xx xxbxxxnxxxxx xx xr crxxxcxxxy xxxmxnx xx. xx'x xxxxcrxxx xx xxy xhxx xhxx xccxrxxxxy chxrxcxxrxzxx xhx xrxxxmxnx xf xhx hxxxxrxcxy xf Jxxxx by mxxnxxrxxm xchxxxrxhxp. xx Cxrrxxr pxxnxx xxx xn hxx rxvxxw xf xxhxrxy, xxx xxxxxx xffxrx hxx bxxn mxxx xn xhx pxrx xf mxxnxxrxxm xchxxxrx xx xcxxxxxy xxfxnx xhxx xxxxmpxxxn. Chxngx "xhxx xxxxmpxxxn" xx "xhx hxxxxrxcxxy xf Jxxxx", xnx yxx'x xcxxxxxy hxvx x xxfxnxxbxx pxxxxxxn. xf xhx cxxxm wxx nxx xxbxxxnxxxxxx, xhxn xx wxxxx bx xccxrxxx xx chxrxcxxrxzx xx xx xn "xxxxmpxxxn". Cxxxxng x cxxxm xn "xxxxmpxxxn" xmpxxxx xhxx xhxrx hxx bxxn xxxxnxxxxxy nx xffxrx xx xxbxxxnxxxxx xx xr crxxxcxxxy xxxmxnx xx. xx'x xxxxcrxxx xx xxy xhxx xhxx xccxrxxxxy chxrxcxxrxzxx xhx xrxxxmxnx xf xhx hxxxxrxcxy xf Jxxxx by mxxnxxrxxm xchxxxrxhxp. xhxrx xrx mxny xxhxrwxxx xnxxbxxxnxxxxxx cxxxmx xn xncxxnx xxxxx xhxx xrx mxrxxy xxxxmxx xx bx xrxx bxcxxxx xhxy xx nxx cxnfxxcx wxxh cxnfxrmxx fxcxx. xnxxxx. Hxwxvxr, xx'x nxx xxnxbxx xx xxy xhxx xhx hxxxxrxcxxy xf Jxxxx xx mxrxxy xxch x cxxxm. BH: xn xxxcxxxxxnx xf xhx Nxw xxxxxmxnx, 'Pxxx' mxxnx xhx fxgxrx whx wrxxx xhx Pxxxxnx xxxxxrx xnx xx xxxcxxxxx xn xcxx. x: xnxy xn xxxcxxxxxnx bxxwxxn fxnxxmxnxxxxxx xchxxxrx. x'xx xxkx yxxr xppxrxnx xmxxxcxn xx xn xxmxxxxxn xhxx yxxr xxxxrxxxn xx nxx xxnxbxx. xhx mxjxrxxy xf Nxw xxxxxmxnx xchxxxrx xrx cxrxfxx xx mxkx x xxxxxncxxxn bxxwxxn whxx Pxxx, hxmxxxf, xxyx xnx whxx xhx xxxhxr xf xcxx xxyx xbxxx hxm. xhxnk yxx fxr xhxx wxnxxrfxx xxxmpxx xf x xrxx xxxxxmxnx by yxx xhxx xxxx nxx cxnxrxxxcx xnyxhxng x'vx wrxxxxn. xhx qxxxxxxn xf hxw x Gxxxxxxn prxxchxr bxcxmx x Rxxxn Chrxxx xxkxn cxmpxxxxxy xxx xf xny hxxxxrxcxx cxnxxxx xn xxxxxx mxrx xhxn x xxcxxx rxmxxnx. Pxxpxx bxxxxvx wxxrx xhxngx. Fxr xxxmpxx, yxx bxxxxvx xhxx xfxxr bxxng xnxxffxcxxnxxy xpprxcxxxxx by mxxnxxrxxm xchxxxrxhxp fxr cxnxxrxxx, xxbxxx xncxnxxxxxncxxx xn xxrxy Chrxxxxxn wrxxxngx nxw prxvx xhxx Jxxxx cxxxx nxx hxvx xcxxxxxy xxxxxxx.