This is my critique of your view on the resurrection.
I have been having difficulty with my computer, this
is why it took me so long.
I am not looking to get into a debate, I simply
believe it is fair that you get a chance to defend
yourself. I am probably going to post this at either
or both Jordan and Holdings sites. If you choose to
respond I will request them to post a link to your
webpage.
In my last message alone you've left about 25-30 of my comments and questions unanswered, which is about how many Jordan was facing when he retired. Similarly, your new paper's every substantive criticism of my writings will be rebutted, but I make no promises how soon I will get around to doing so.
Below is my rebuttal. In any of your criticisms of my writings, I invite you to link to http://humanknowledge.net/Correspondence/index.html#Kris_Key, which will always contain an up-to-date index of my answers to your criticisms (and links to your criticisms if available).
BH: The most likely explanation is as
follows. First, out of zeal for the cause and ministry of their
charismatic and righteous martyr, some disciple(s) of Jesus arranged to
have his body stolen, as in the rumor reported in Mt 28. Possible
conspirators were Joseph of Arimathea and Mary Magdalene, a longtime
disciple [Lk 8:2] "out of whom [Jesus] had driven seven demons" [Mk
16:9, Lk 8:2] and who (unlike any apostle) attended both the
crucifixion and entombment. She was the first to visit the tomb on
Easter [Mt 28:1, Jn 20:1], and the possibility of removal [Jn
20:2,14,15] was not unimaginable to her. She weepingly and suspiciously
lingered [Jn 20:11] after the apostles left the empty tomb, and
thereupon was the first [Mk 16:9, Mt 28:9, Jn 20:14] to claim seeing an
appearance. Mary or some other (possibly non-conspiring) disciple could
have exaggerated a feeling or vision of a morally triumphant and
spiritually resurrected Jesus, a vision which other core disciples soon
unconsciously induced in themselves (and elaborated on). KK: I found your view to be
interesting; it was a fascinating blend of Ludemann’s view and that of
the conspiracy theory. I will first confess that it does have three
strengths. I'm surprised that my thesis is new to you and that you apparently
think it's original. In your time as an allegedly well-read atheist,
did you think that any conspiracy thesis required that all apostles and
NT authors were in on the scheme, and that no early Christians
experienced any kind of ecstatic epiphany or manifestation that they
misinterpreted as a triumphant Jesus? KK: But your theories
strengths are few, and the weaknesses are vast. One of the key
weaknesses in your theory is your treatment of the historical text in
question. I will examine below each of the verses you use and show how
they suffer from one of three fallacies: your use of the text is
unjustifiably skeptical. At best it is a forced reading and most
importantly less forced and skeptical readings are better explanations
of the authors intent. Thank you for admitting that your alternative
reading is less skeptical, as it indeed involves credulously accepting
the gospel authors' thesis. You apparently miss my point that the
gospel authors themselves were probably dupes of any empty-tomb
conspiracy. Luke 8:2- as well as some women who had been cured of evil
spirits and infirmities: Mary, called Magdalene, from whom seven demons
had gone out… KK: To suggest Mary would have become a
thief on bases of this is simply ludicrous. My suggestion is not that Mary "became a thief". My
suggestion is that the body could have been stolen by an extremely
zealous and somewhat unstable disciple, and that being possessed by
"seven demons" is prima facie evidence of Mary having been unbalanced.
The only thing "ludicrous" here is your distortion of my thesis into
the notion that being cured of demonic possession led Mary to become a
habitual criminal. KK: I wonder how many
courts would consider this to be evidence for her becoming a thief. This is the tired apologetic tactic of invoking a
ludicrously inappropriate standard of proof. Do you dare claim
there is any court at all that would assert that the truth of
Christianity can be established on the basis of the available evidence?
In her trial should Andrea Yates have tried to establish in court the
truth of Christianity in order to justify her contention that drowning
her children decreased their chances of ending up in Hell? KK: The verse simply states Mary was
cured from a demonic possession , nothing more. "Nothing more" makes you sound somewhat credulous.
To anyone not so credulous, a personal history of (seven-time?) demonic
possession is prima facie evidence for a susceptibility to
irrationality, delusion, or outright psychosis. Matt 28:1- After
the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene
and the other Mary went to see the tomb. KK: This verse is
simply reporting that Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the
tomb. The most natural and commonsense reading of this verse is for
them to mourn, nothing else. My point, obviously, is that as an alleged witness
of the entombment and the first visitor to the tomb, Mary Magdalene was
in a position to have taken part in any removal of the body. You here
do not address my point at all, and instead merely parrot what the
gospel authors obviously want you to believe. John 20:1-2 Early
on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene
came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the
tomb. So she ran and went to Simon Peter and the
other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, "They have
taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid
him . KK: There is no reason
to read into this text an assumption that Mary Magdalene was a thief, Two distortions in one sentence: you name-call my
hypothesis "an assumption", and you make it sound like my hypothesis is
that Mary Magdalene was some kind of shoplifter. There are obvious
reasons to hypothesize that Mary may have taken part in a body theft:
she had the motive, opportunity, and probably the means as well. KK: she came to a
natural reaction when first she saw the tomb to be empty, which was
robbery Amusingly, you here tacitly concede the
reasonableness of my basic body-theft thesis. Mary was a long-time
disciple who (unlike any apostle) attended both the crucifixion and
entombment; she would have known of Jesus allegedly predicting at least
four times [Mk 8:31, 10:34; Mat 16:21, 17:23, 20:19; Lk 9:22, 18:33,
24:7, 24:46] that he would "rise from the dead" or be "raised to life"
"on the third day". You elsewhere claim that a tomb-emptying physical
resurrection was the only kind of resurrection that Jesus' followers
could have believed in. Despite all this, you say that concluding
grave robbery would have been a "natural reaction". Thank you. John 20:11 - But
Mary stood weeping outside the tomb. As she wept, she bent over to look
into the tomb. Another instance of name-calling ("assumption"), and
another failure to answer my point: by lingering outside the tomb, Mary
was uniquely positioned to experience the first manifestation. John 20:14-15. When
she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but
she did not know that it was Jesus. Jesus said to her, "Woman, why are
you weeping? Whom are you looking for?" Supposing him to be the
gardener, she said to him, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me
where you have laid him, and I will take him away KK: Again I am simply
puzzled by your assumption here; it would be perfectly natural that
Mary Magdalene would first see Jesus. The apostles had left. That's my point -- she apparently waited until they
had left. If she hadn't been the last one there, or hadn't been the
first to experience a triumphant Jesus, the gospel narrative would
undercut my accusation. But it doesn't. Also, we here see that her first experience of the
triumphant Jesus might have just been a case of mistaken identity, in
which she imagined the spirit of Jesus alive in some other person (as
John the Baptist was believed to be risen in Jesus; see below). KK: Also to read this
as evidence of Mary being a thief again is a forced reading. She was first to the scene of the possible crime,
lingered there until everyone else had left, and then was the first to
have the experience of the crime's intended alibi: a trimuphant Jesus
surviving death in some sense. This reading is hardly "forced". KK: Your use of the
verses above is simply irrational. It rends them completely out of
context. Insubstantive name-calling. KK: It also play scholarly pick and
choose. It ignores other verses which would clearly refute that reading
of them. Which "other verses"? Do you mean the ones that
assert that Jesus did in fact rise from the dead? Below you talk about
the stone and the burial linen, as if every detail recorded (or
invented) decades later by the disciples should be given equal
credence. If there had been an empty tomb conspiracy, its existence of
course would not be consistent with every embellishment that
later developed in the gospel traditions. Scholars agree that by
default more credence can be given to story elements that seem
embarrassing or contrary to the evangelists' apologetic purposes. You
can call it “pick and choose”, but doing so just identifies you as
unfamiliar with standard exegetical practice. Do you think that if there had indeed been a
successful secret plot to steal the body, then the duped gospel authors
writing decades later could not possibly have written anything that
would point away from a stolen body and toward an actual
resurrection? Your position seems to be one of naive
credulousness. KK: There was no
belief among the Jews about the idea of a spiritual resurrection. You seem confused about my thesis. My thesis is not
that 1) on Easter the disciples instantly believed that Jesus was
resurrected as a spirit that one could see and converse with and 2) the
gospel tradition later decided that what they were seeing and talking
to was his resurrected and tangible corpse. Rather, my thesis is that some disciples began
having epiphanies, perhaps involving the occasional dream, ecstatic
vision, encounter with a stranger, case of mistaken identity, or
outright hallucination (or fabrication). The disciples in their
desperation and zeal initially interpreted these experiences as
manifestations of a triumphant and vindicated (but not necessarily
reanimated) Jesus, who had apparently predicted that he would in some
sense return or at least that his ministry would require but survive
his death. If a tomb had in fact been found empty, that doesn't
necessarily imply that these early manifestations were initially
interpreted as experiences of a physically reanimated corpse. The
disciples might have just believed that Yahweh had “raised” Jesus' body
to heaven so as to not “abandon [it] to the grave” and to “decay” [Ps
16:10, cited in Acts 13:35-37]. An empty tomb belief would greatly have
helped the early ephiphanic experiences be misinterpreted, exaggerated,
and embellished over the subsequent half century into the reanimated
corpse stories that appear only in the two oldest gospels (Luke and
John). The gospels themselves give precedent for the idea
of a dead person being “raised from the dead” [Mk 16:14] by inhabiting
the body of some other person currently living. When some [Mk 6:14, Mk
8:28, Mt 16:14, Lk 9:19] -- including Herod [Mk 6:16, Mt 14:2] --
thought that John the Baptist had been "raised from the dead", at
least a few of these people would have known that Jesus' body had been
in use before the Baptist's death. There is no record that anyone ever
considered checking the Baptist's body (the grave of which was known
his disciples [Mk 6:29, Mt 14:13]), and there is no record that anyone
wondered why Jesus' neck did not show signs of John's earlier beheading. KK: For example read the following
verses None of these
non-gospel verses can remove from your holy gospels my examples above
of the Baptist being considered “raised from the dead” in another
person's body and being so considered simply because of the words and
deeds of that other person. (The gospels are once again my best ally in
arguing against the strained Old Testament exegeses of Christian
apologists.) KK:
These verses easily demonstrate the Jewish view of resurrection from
the dead. It was always a physical occurrence. The Pharisees even
debated as to whether the resurected dead would still wear their burial
cloths, thus there are no good historical reasons to believe that the
apostles or Paul (who was a Pharisee) would have believed in a
spiritual resurrection. Instead of all your
Old Testament quotes, you might have considered quoting what Paul
himself actually wrote concerning the resurrection body. Here are
those verses: 1 Cor 15:35-54:
But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body
will they come?" [..] There are also heavenly bodies and there are
earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind,
and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. [..] So will it be
with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable,
it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in
glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a
natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural
body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: "The first man
Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a lifegiving spirit. The
spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the
spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man
from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth;
and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And
just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear
the likeness of the man from heaven. I declare to you, brothers, that
flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the
perishable inherit the imperishable. [..] the dead will be raised
imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe
itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. Here
Paul himself distinguishes the “natural body” from the “spiritual body”
no less than thirteen times. Also,
you here completely ignore the point that in 1 Cor 15 Paul includes his
own merely auditory epiphanic experience as an “appearance” of the
resurrected Jesus. If merely hearing a voice counts for Paul as an
appearance of the resurrected Jesus, then he obviously does not think
that such appearances necessarily involve a reanimated physical corpse. KK: I shall begin
with Corinthians. The spiritual body that is being discussed is the
resurrected body. The resurrected body is a physical body This is your statement, not Paul's. I quote Paul
thirteen times distinguishing the resurrected body from physical
bodies. You cannot once quote Paul saying “the resurrected body is a
physical body”, so you just baldly assert it. KK: Verse 47 discusses
Adam, which is clearly a physical creation. Your citation is laughable. 1 Cor 15:47 is: “The
first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.”
Paul here is obviously implying that the “second man” -- the
resurrected one – is not composed “of the dust of the earth”. Now,
which of Paul's twelve other physical/spiritual distinctions do you
want to cite as a physical/physical non-distinction? KK: Verse 20 "But
in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those
who have died." This verse discusses the idea that Christ had been
bodily resurrected from the dead "Bodily" is your word, not Paul's. KK: This is clearly
referring to the Jewish view of resurrection, a good example of this
can be found in John 11:23-24 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will
rise again." A better example is the
actual (not merely hoped for and eschatological) resurrection asserted
above by many Jews about John the Baptist. KK: Verse 15:22 of 1st
Corinthian –"for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in
Christ." It refers to the death of Adam, which was clearly a
physical event . We're talking about whether resurrection is
physical, not whether death is physical. OK, that's 2 of 13. Which of
Paul's eleven other physical/spiritual distinctions do you want to cite
as a physical/physical non-distinction? KK: In verse 44 Paul
use of the word soma twice, proving that he intended for the
Corinthians to understand the resurrected body to be physical. 1 Cor 15:44 is “it is sown a natural body, it is
raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a
spiritual body.” It's hilarious that you consider these two
distinctions to support your case. You seem to think Paul wrote “it is
sown a natural body, it is also raised a natural body. If there is a
natural body, the spiritual body is similarly natural.” OK, that's 4 of
13. Which of Paul's nine other physical/spiritual distinctions do you
want to cite as a physical/physical non-distinction? KK: The word simply
has no other meaning ( Soma in Biblical Theology by Robert Gundry) [..
Paul's] word soma has no meaning besides that of physical. The
best view of what Paul is trying to say is this " The resurrected body
will be physical, but have spiritual aspects." Actually, the key to Paul's point (whatever it is)
lies not in his use of soma, but in his distinction between soma
psychikon and soma pneumatikon. Paul does not cite any physical aspect of Jesus'
resurrected existence. Paul distinguishes thirteen times between
earthly and heavenly existence, and not once cites any physical aspects
of the heavenly or spiritual soma. Ist
Peter 3:18 –19 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the
righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put
to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, in which also
he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison KK: The author of 1st
Peter is clearly familiar with the Jewish concept of bodily
resurrection, he mentions it twice in his epistles [1 Pet 1:3, 1 Pet
3:21]. Neither of these verses mention a specifically
“bodily” resurrection. They mention resurrection (anastasis),
and you claim it necessarily connotes “physicality”. In fact, none of the
alleged (and almost certainly pseudepigraphic) letters of Peter, James,
Jude, and John mention an empty tomb or a specifically physical
resurrection, even in contexts [1 Pet 3:18, 1 Pet 5:1, 2 Pet 1:16]
where one might expect them to. KK: Paul, as seen by
his use of the word "soma" in 1st Corinthians 15:44,
clearly believes in a bodily resurrection. LOL. In 1 Cor 15, Paul does not cite any physical
aspect of Jesus' resurrected existence. Paul distinguishes thirteen
times between earthly and heavenly existence, and not once cites any
physical aspects of the heavenly or spiritual soma. KK: Standing before
the Sanhedrin in Acts 23:6 he used the word ‘anastasis" to describe
this event: “I am on trial concerning the hope of the resurrection
of the dead.” Nothing in this verse implies a belief
by Paul that the manifestations reported in 1 Cor 15 were of a
physically reanimated Jesus. KK: Now that it is
clear that the author of 1st Peter believed in a bodily
resurrection by his use of the word "anastasis" It is clear that you're
confusing your beliefs with those of the author of 1 Peter. KK: the rest of his
statements should clearly be understood within the light of Jewish
norms of its days. Verses 3:19-20 clearly refer to the spiritual state
of existence, which would have occurred after the crucifixion and until
the resurrection on Easter Sunday. While in this spiritual form, Jesus
preached to the spirits ( what he preached is not stated) This
preaching ended when Jesus bodily rose from the dead. “Bodily” is your word, not that of the author of 1
Peter. KK: If Paul (and
Peter) were preaching a spiritual resurection to the Pagans, why did
Christianity later adopt the physical view, which Pagans would have
found to be disgusting? Doctrine
wasn't necessarily determined by a cynical calculation of popular
appeal, and only a tiny
fraction of pagans indeed initally adopted Christianity. However, a
doctrine of physical resurrection would hardly render Christianity
irretrievably un-adoptable to all pagans. Richard Carrier writes
that there were many precedents One
can easily imagine how factors like combined
over a half century to produce the reanimated corpse stories
that appear only in the two oldest gospels (Luke and John). KK: Your use of visual
hallucinations is fatally flawed. The most obvious difficulty with it
lies that there simply is not enough evidence to know if the apostles
had any mental illness at all, much less were so mentally ill that they
had both auditory and visually based hallucinations. In the explanation of mine to which you're
responding, I mentioned “visions” not “hallucinations”. You exhibit the
fallacy of the excluded middle to assume that the disciples must either
have been 1) “mentally ill” or 2) always completely lucid and never
subject to visions induced by religious ecstasy. KK: The hallucinations
of the sort you suggest are rare in one person, obviously postulating
it occurred within all of Jesus’s closest followers is extremely
difficult “All” is your word, not mine. I didn't say all of
Jesus' closest followers had “hallucinations”; I didn't even say they
“all” had visions .I say some
disciples began having epiphanies, perhaps involving the occasional
dream, ecstatic vision, encounter with a stranger, case of mistaken
identity, or outright hallucination (or fabrication). KK: It is not enough
to state people hallucinate, it needs to be demonstrated that it is
probable for Jesus’s closest followers to have done this in order for
this explanation to be taken seriously. Which is more probable: visions and epiphanies that
were misinterpreted and exaggerated, or that the creator of 100 billion
galaxies would concern himself with the fertility problems of a
Mesopotamian nomad, commit unspeakable crimes against that nomad's
tribal enemies, and then incarnate himself as a secretive unpublished
family-resenting bastard carpenter in the rural outback of a peripheral
province of a regional empire that had no significant communication
with the majority of the human race? KK: why didn’t one
apostle hallucinate an assumption and another a spiritual resurrection?
There is no compelling reason to believe that the apostles should have
had uniform hallucinations experiences. I don't say they did. I haven't even said that there
were necessarily any hallucinations at all. KK: The conversion of
James is not properly explained in your theory. To be exact, it is
ignored. On the contrary, I've elsewhere
written that "Jesus' family are the best possible witnesses to testify
about the validity of his ministry, and their verdict was unanimous
that his ministry was not authentic. Only after the trauma of Jesus'
execution did they decide to step in front of the parade that Jesus had
been leading.” Jesus seems to have been
illegitmate, and to have been known to be such in his community [Mt
1:18-24]. His only recorded words before his ministry concern his
disobedience [Lk 2:48,51] at age 12 to his mother and stepfather, whom
he denied by calling the Temple "my Father's house". He spurned his
stepfather's trade of carpentry to take up a ministry proclaiming
himself the son not of Joseph but of God. Despite alleged angelic
revelations [Lk 1:32, Mt 1:20, Mt 2:13, Mt 2:20] to Mary and Joseph,
they (and Jesus' siblings) did not believe in him [Jn 7:5, Mt 13:57]
and thought him "out of his mind" [Mk 3:21], leading Jesus to
repeatedly stress [Mk 10:29, Mt 19:29, Lk 11:27-28, Lk 14:26, Mt 10:37,
Mk 3:33, Mt 12:48] that one should choose God over one's biological
family. Only on the day of his death do the gospels record a single
friendly word [Jn 19:26] from Jesus to his family. KK: He was not
interested in his brothers ministry during Jesus’s lifetime ( John
7:1-9 and Mk 3:31-35) These verses are certainly historical because
they have no apologetic value and would seem to cast Jesus in a
negative light. Earlier you said I “pick and choose” verses, but you
here admit that we can have more historical confidence in verses with
no apologetic value or that cast Jesus in a negative light. KK: He was never a
follower of Jesus so why should he have guilt based hallucinations? I've never said James had any kind of hallucinations. James
was probably traumatized and chagrined by his brother's death. KK: Why should he get
himself involved with a movement which was being persecuted, for a
brother he thought insane ( Mk 3:31) and who had just died the most
shameful death possible It's hardly surprising that James would rethink his
beliefs upon his brother's death, or that he would feel pressure (or
see an opportunity) to lead his brother's movement. KK: [your thesis] also
requires none of the apostles to even consider the possibility of theft
even after seeing Jesus’s burial linen laying in the tomb (John 20:5). (I don't know why seeing the linen would make theft
seem more likely.) I don't require that no apostle considered the
possibility of theft; I merely require that none of them reached and
held theft as a conclusion. KK: Nor does it offer
an explanation for the conversion of the other women besides Mary
Magdelane, because they like wise would have no reason to have guilt
based hallucinations I never said “guilt-based hallucinations” were the
cause of anyone's “conversion”. At any rate, Mary's alleged companions
at the tomb already were converts. KK: Lastly, it does
not deal with the psychological data at all, which would suggest the
apostles would have come to their senses. (Brandt 209) If “Brandt” has evidence that rebuts my actual
thesis (and not just your misrepresentation of it), then feel free to
actually describe or quote that evidence. KK: The explanation
given for the conversion of Paul is that of guilt + seizure =
conversion. [..] What is the evidence for Paul feeling guilty? 1 Cor 15:9 “For I am the least of the apostles and
do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the
church of God.” KK: Another difficulty
with this view is that guilt did not exist in ancient societies as it
does in modern societies. Guilt, shame, embarrassment, chagrin, contrition,
remorse – it would be ludicrous to claim that these phenomena were
inoperative in ancient societies. KK: social science
scholar Richard Rohrbaugh (coauthor, along with Bruce Malina of various
social commentaries on the New Testament), had this to say: [..]
All known agrarian societies have been honor-shame societies and it is
only individualistic societies in which guilt comes to the fore. The
issue is therefore not the modern versus the ancient, but the
collectivist versus the individualistic. Rohrbaugh's alleged distinctions between
shame/guilt and collective/individual are of course no guarantee that a
religion's persecutor could never develop enough
sympathy/shame/contrition/remorse to help explain a change of heart
about that persecution. I defy you to quote such a guarantee asserted
in any peer-reviewed social science publication. KK: why should this
guilt have created hallucinations? I didn't say it “created hallucinations”. KK: what is the direct
evidence for seizures? (I said “seizure”, not “seizures”.) What is the
direct evidence for a supernatural theophany to Paul from a Hebrew
tribal deity incarnated as a secretive unpublished family-resenting
bastard carpenter from Galilee? Of these two possible explanations, one
is obviously more parsimonious. As Richard Carrier writes,
"this particular encounter in Acts has all the earmarks of something
like a seizure-induced hallucination: Paul alone sees a flash of light,
and he hears voices and goes blind for a short period." KK: To accept this
theory one would have to accept that Paul suffered from four distinct,
rare forms of mental illness: conversion disorder, auditory
hallucinations, visual hallucinations Only if you take at face value the multiple and
conflicting accounts of Paul's conversion, written well after the event
and for evangelical purposes. I merely need claim that Paul
misinterpreted and exaggerated some kind of seizure or hallucination or
ecstatic epiphany. I need not claim that anyone who feels a calling to
the ministry must necessarily have a "messianic disorder". KK: John 20:1 records
that the stone had already been moved and no body was present, thus
from this verse alone Mary Magdalane [sic] could not be a thief, the
body was gone by the time she arrived. Your reasoning here is inexcusably credulous. First,
John does not say what Mary was doing before her alleged visit to the
alleged tomb on Easter morning. Second, Jn 20:1 implies that she went
alone and in the predawn darkness, so even for this visit the gospel
author would only have Mary's word for what she did or didn't do. KK: Reading four verse
down in John 20:5 we find that the burial linen of Jesus was left
behind. Why would a thief steal the body , but leave that behind, which
would be clear evidence of theft? Again, I don't see how the linen constitutes “clear
evidence” for (or against) theft. KK: Why did the notion
of theft never occur to the apostles, even after this? Unless the apostles had their fingers in their ears,
the possibility of theft was brought to their attention by Mary
Magdalene in Jn 20:2: “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we
don't know where they have put him!” KK: The early
evangelist, who stressed the importance of witness, never thought to
investigate this idea? We of course don't know what investigations were
made of any empty tomb(s) that Jesus was alleged to have occupied. All
we know is that enough investigation was done that even Matthew had to
admit (in the gospel most written for a Jewish audience) that the
conclusion of a stolen body was “widely circulated among the Jews even
to this day”. KK: there is no reason
for Joseph to have robbed the tomb. This theory also offers an
inconstinency: the idea that followers of the high moral teachings of
Jesus would be so craven as to rob his tomb, then allow this farce to
continue. Millions of self-described Christians believe that
Jesus was a mere man whose “high moral teachings” were and are
nevertheless immensely important. Jesus was in fact a merely mortal
prophet, and martyrdom was no "farce" but rather was a standard fate
for Jewish prophets. For the Jews who would have stolen the body,
Jesus' message was not at all invalidated by his martyrdom and
continuing non-divinity. KK: Lastly this theory
needs to postulate possibily two people allowing themselves to be
persecuted for something they knew to be a lie. 1. Joseph was at little risk, since Joseph was only
“secretly” [Jn 19:38] a disciple of Jesus, and was outed as such only
decades later when he was presumably dead. 2. As a longtime disciple and ex-demoniac, Mary
proved her zealousness by (unlike any apostle) attending both the
crucifixion and entombment. She was the first to visit the tomb on
Easter, and was the first [Mk 16:9, Mt 28:9, Jn 20:14] to claim seeing
an appearance. Despite all this, she is ommitted from Paul's list [1
Cor 15] of appearances, and vanishes from recorded history as soon as
she talks others into having their own epiphanies. (In the apocryphal
Gospel of Mary, Peter tells her "we know that the Savior loved you more
than any other woman. Tell us the words of the Savior that you know but
which we haven't heard." She answers "I saw the Lord in a vision" and
relates the conversation she had with him.) 3. Peter and James are the only resurrection witnesses who
the New Testament names (John 21:18,19, Acts 12:2) as martyrs, but
there is no evidence that recanting just their alleged belief in
physical resurrection could have saved them. As far as I know, no
Christian was ever persecuted specifically for her belief in an empty
tomb. Are you admitting that there were indeed plenty of first-century
messianic movements? For some Christian apologists, the alleged
uniqueness of Jesus' messianism is crucial to their flimsy case that
Jesus in fact claimed to be divine. N.T. Wright: [..]in no case, right
across the century before Jesus and the century after him, do we hear
of any Jewish group saying that their executed leader had been raised
from the dead and he really was the Messiah after all" Perhaps the other groups had more sense. Perhaps none of
the other groups had any tomb-emptying conspirators among them. We
should ask why any such
group would proclaim a resurrection, not why all of them wouldn't. KK: Other cults
throughout history have had its leader die (in less shameful ways), and
they never proclaimed him risen, why this one? History isn't so simplistically deterministic. In
addition to the factors I just mentioned, another reason might be path
dependence: after such a resurrection has been so widely proclaimed
once, subsequent attempts could be dismissed as copycats. KK: According to Deut
21:22-24 Jesus died a shameful death which left him far from being a
martyr, but instead a man cursed by God. The overwhelming majority of Jews indeed rejected
Jesus, who only merited a passing mention in Josephus' detailed history
of 1st Century Palestine's Jews and their various factions.
Those who remained in the Jesus movement presumably accepted something
like Paul's rationalization [Gal 3:13] of the curse you cited: “Christ
redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for
it is written: 'Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.'" KK: They had no
further reason to follow this man, his death proclaimed him to be a
false prophet, rejected by God, and that they had simply been deceived. Are you saying there was no tradition of martyred
prophets in Judaism? KK: If they had wanted
to continue his movement, even after this disaster why didn’t they
simply proclaim Judas to be the Messiah, or that failing, perhaps Peter? The Jesus movement had come to believe that Jesus
was unique. Upon his death, the movement needed not to replace him and
thus deny his uniqueness, but to convince itself that he was vindicated. KK: What convinced the
apostles of the idea of a dying and rising view of the Messiah, which
had no foundation in the Jewish world view? (The Jewish view of the
Messiah was a conquering king Micah 5:2-6). The nature of the Messiah was hardly the only
element of Judaism that Jesus (and much more so, Paul) reinterpreted or
rejected. KK: Lastly what
convinced Paul and James of the validity of Christ, turning both of
them into champions of the faith. You seem to assume that Jesus preached precisely the
doctrines of what later became orthodox Christianity, and that Paul and
James adopted “the faith” overnight. Paul and James were indeed
converted to the Jesus movement; see above for my discussion of James
and Paul. KK: Many explanations
have been proposed to explain Easter Sunday naturally. None of them
come near to being plausible and this theory is no different. The best
explanation remains the first "he is risen indeed"! If that is the “best explanation”, then why has the
trend in Western intellectual history for the last century or two been
to reject
the worldview corresponding to that explanation?
KK: A superior explanation is that Mary stayed by the tomb to
mourn, first the death of her beloved teacher and now the apparent
theft of his body. Your assumption about this verse is simply
unwarranted.
Daniel 12:2-3
Ezekiel 37:1-12
Is. 26:19
4 Ezra 7:32
1 Enoch 51:1
Sib. Or. IV
2 Baruch 50:2ff
Pseudo-Phocylides 103-4